Just how likely? I have never once received any sexual or messages of harassment.
I am not english speaker, nor going to use translator neither, so: sorry in advance. This is my opinion: IT is a generational problem. Not-cristal-people are free of theese issues. Of course there is bad people online, bad people everywhere. It is not a chess problem, it is a natural condition. Are you a good person_? me too... or not_? Men will go for women forever(I hope) and there is nothing wrong with it. If someone disturb you, run, ignore or fight. It he is breaking the law go to the law, do not make it a chess problem. Are the blak people making demands because white pieces move first_? Now we are going to make neutral colors for chess pieces and squares, so the crystal generation don ́t raise flag against the game too.
For the last, I am sorry for you. I have kids and would kill if someone hurts them... but some of your friends are right. Stay close to them.
For the last, I am sorry for you. I have kids and would kill if someone hurts them... but some of your friends are right. Stay close to them.
@Mennonite said in #486:
> Telling people that "zen mode just solves the problem" isn't a real solution. The online chess experience, at its best, is social, and removing that aspect takes quite a bit out of the experience for a lot of players.
Wrong. It IS a real solution because it SOLVES the issue. 99% of the time nobody says anything in games anyway and if someone is so thin skinned that they are hurt by online text messages then they can turn on zen mode to guarantee that they don't get hurt.
@Mennonite said in #486:
> It also places the burden on victims, where it shouldn't be.
No it does not. The victims don't have the burden. It's an opportunity to take certain precautions. That's why people lock their doors or not displaying valuable items.
When people travel to areas with known risks you don't say it's victim blaming to tell people to get vaccinated or to avoid certain areas at night.
If someone spends money recklessly without saving you don't say it's victim blaming to tell the person they should have budgeted.
If someone shares personal details recklessly on social media you don't say it's victim blaming to tell the person that they should avoid doing that.
If someone is a PERFECT driver you don't say it's victim blaming when someone says that for safety one should wear a seat belt.
If someone is in an abuse relationship, you don't say it's victim blaming if someone tells them that they should seek help or leave the situation.
But when it comes to receiving sexual harassment messages in online chess now it's all the sudden victim blaming to tell them to turn on zen mode as a solution. Yeah that sure makes a lot of sense.
Also let's not forget the fact that zen mode SOLVES the issue at hand. If this issue was so significant that "zen mode" would be used because solving the issue of sexual harassment on chess would outweigh the social aspect of the online chess experience which in my experience about 1 out of 100 games someone says something. So now explain to me why this issue is significant at all if people don't even bother using zen mode?
> Telling people that "zen mode just solves the problem" isn't a real solution. The online chess experience, at its best, is social, and removing that aspect takes quite a bit out of the experience for a lot of players.
Wrong. It IS a real solution because it SOLVES the issue. 99% of the time nobody says anything in games anyway and if someone is so thin skinned that they are hurt by online text messages then they can turn on zen mode to guarantee that they don't get hurt.
@Mennonite said in #486:
> It also places the burden on victims, where it shouldn't be.
No it does not. The victims don't have the burden. It's an opportunity to take certain precautions. That's why people lock their doors or not displaying valuable items.
When people travel to areas with known risks you don't say it's victim blaming to tell people to get vaccinated or to avoid certain areas at night.
If someone spends money recklessly without saving you don't say it's victim blaming to tell the person they should have budgeted.
If someone shares personal details recklessly on social media you don't say it's victim blaming to tell the person that they should avoid doing that.
If someone is a PERFECT driver you don't say it's victim blaming when someone says that for safety one should wear a seat belt.
If someone is in an abuse relationship, you don't say it's victim blaming if someone tells them that they should seek help or leave the situation.
But when it comes to receiving sexual harassment messages in online chess now it's all the sudden victim blaming to tell them to turn on zen mode as a solution. Yeah that sure makes a lot of sense.
Also let's not forget the fact that zen mode SOLVES the issue at hand. If this issue was so significant that "zen mode" would be used because solving the issue of sexual harassment on chess would outweigh the social aspect of the online chess experience which in my experience about 1 out of 100 games someone says something. So now explain to me why this issue is significant at all if people don't even bother using zen mode?
@replaced
I know that you don't care, but
@TurtleMat said in #489:
> the question is how do we prevent aggression *without* reducing women option on how to live their lives.
I know that you don't care, but
@TurtleMat said in #489:
> the question is how do we prevent aggression *without* reducing women option on how to live their lives.
@QueenRosieMary said in #359:
>5 people in a couple of months for personal harassment, bullying, explicit dms, stalking etc. I have in this time also reported countless others for"routine" chess-related ToS violations like suspected engine use, verbal abuse or public shaming in the chat etc, I'm not counting these in this total.
@replaced said in #396:
> Ok so that's not even much. It's odd at how this one issue (sexual harassment) gets so much press coverage
Well, it's five times too many times in my book over any period. You seem to be lacking in empathy. One time would be too much. But sure, go ahead and minimise the issue and start talking about car accidents which is off-topic whataboutery.
>5 people in a couple of months for personal harassment, bullying, explicit dms, stalking etc. I have in this time also reported countless others for"routine" chess-related ToS violations like suspected engine use, verbal abuse or public shaming in the chat etc, I'm not counting these in this total.
@replaced said in #396:
> Ok so that's not even much. It's odd at how this one issue (sexual harassment) gets so much press coverage
Well, it's five times too many times in my book over any period. You seem to be lacking in empathy. One time would be too much. But sure, go ahead and minimise the issue and start talking about car accidents which is off-topic whataboutery.
@stevegleds said in #494:
> I commend @QueenRosieMary for taking the time to produce a well-written summary of the current situation for many women and girls in chess. It is not the first, best or, sadly, the last such blog but well worth reading. It is with some trepidation that I enter the fray but I will attempt to bring the discussion back to the main subject. In particular, I want to address some of the questions that were asked of men in the blog.
>
> I would first say I welcomed the acknowledgement that the vast majority of men are: "are lovely, fantastic individuals. They are polite, respectful, friendly ... ". And also that males also suffer and that some women are also perpetrators. This is self-evident but it bears stating to avoid unnecessary and irrelevant criticism.
>
> There are two questions asked of men ('guys'):
>
> Q1 How aware were you before reading this of the issue?
> Q2 How do you think you can make a difference?
>
> Q1 Awareness
> I started playing seriously a year or so ago and was shocked to realise that this was an issue in the 21st century. I dismissed it the first few times I heard about it as perhaps being not so widespread and/or serious.
> The more I heard and read about the more I came to realise how prevalent it was. My awareness was helped by listening to chess podcasts and Jennifer Shahade got my attention. I read her book and the full realisation set in.
> In all candour, I was surprised by how the book focussed on real fleshed-out stories and looked to the future to identify solutions. This was not the male-bashing I had expected but a well-articulated and reasoned account.
>
> Q2 How do you think you can make a difference.
> For me, I attempt to call out issues when I see them. Unfortunately, this is not always easy and I frequently opt out for fear of backlash and trolling. I can do better.
>
> I also read blogs (such as this one) with an open, yet critical, mind to try and get an understanding of the big picture and use this to inform my decisions and comments.
>
> I note the blog refers to the Women In Chess foundation and in particular their advocacy program. www.womeninchess.com/advocacy-initiative. I intend to watch this with interest in the hope that I can learn how best to make women and girls welcome in this male-dominated environment.
>
> This can be particularly difficult when, even in the blog it states that she has "encountered male users who seem to persistently seek out both adult and underaged female users to encourage them to join their teams.". When does "you're welcome to join my team" turn from being welcoming and inclusive into something undesirable?
>
> Similarly, I will seek guidance on how best to make women and girls feel welcome and comfortable in OTB tournaments. How to say "Hi, you're welcome here. I hope everything is OK" without this, by its very nature, treating the person as an outlier? Or, is it better (my current position) to ignore it altogether, shake their hand and say GG seemingly uncaring about any difficulties they may be facing. Again, the advocacy program may help with this.
>
> I am just an older guy trying to a better chess player and a better human being.
Thank you so much, Steve! I really appreciate you taking the time to read the blog and answer my questions.
> I commend @QueenRosieMary for taking the time to produce a well-written summary of the current situation for many women and girls in chess. It is not the first, best or, sadly, the last such blog but well worth reading. It is with some trepidation that I enter the fray but I will attempt to bring the discussion back to the main subject. In particular, I want to address some of the questions that were asked of men in the blog.
>
> I would first say I welcomed the acknowledgement that the vast majority of men are: "are lovely, fantastic individuals. They are polite, respectful, friendly ... ". And also that males also suffer and that some women are also perpetrators. This is self-evident but it bears stating to avoid unnecessary and irrelevant criticism.
>
> There are two questions asked of men ('guys'):
>
> Q1 How aware were you before reading this of the issue?
> Q2 How do you think you can make a difference?
>
> Q1 Awareness
> I started playing seriously a year or so ago and was shocked to realise that this was an issue in the 21st century. I dismissed it the first few times I heard about it as perhaps being not so widespread and/or serious.
> The more I heard and read about the more I came to realise how prevalent it was. My awareness was helped by listening to chess podcasts and Jennifer Shahade got my attention. I read her book and the full realisation set in.
> In all candour, I was surprised by how the book focussed on real fleshed-out stories and looked to the future to identify solutions. This was not the male-bashing I had expected but a well-articulated and reasoned account.
>
> Q2 How do you think you can make a difference.
> For me, I attempt to call out issues when I see them. Unfortunately, this is not always easy and I frequently opt out for fear of backlash and trolling. I can do better.
>
> I also read blogs (such as this one) with an open, yet critical, mind to try and get an understanding of the big picture and use this to inform my decisions and comments.
>
> I note the blog refers to the Women In Chess foundation and in particular their advocacy program. www.womeninchess.com/advocacy-initiative. I intend to watch this with interest in the hope that I can learn how best to make women and girls welcome in this male-dominated environment.
>
> This can be particularly difficult when, even in the blog it states that she has "encountered male users who seem to persistently seek out both adult and underaged female users to encourage them to join their teams.". When does "you're welcome to join my team" turn from being welcoming and inclusive into something undesirable?
>
> Similarly, I will seek guidance on how best to make women and girls feel welcome and comfortable in OTB tournaments. How to say "Hi, you're welcome here. I hope everything is OK" without this, by its very nature, treating the person as an outlier? Or, is it better (my current position) to ignore it altogether, shake their hand and say GG seemingly uncaring about any difficulties they may be facing. Again, the advocacy program may help with this.
>
> I am just an older guy trying to a better chess player and a better human being.
Thank you so much, Steve! I really appreciate you taking the time to read the blog and answer my questions.
@QueenRosieMary said in #511:
> Well, it's five times too many times in my book over any period. You seem to be lacking in empathy. One time would be too much. But sure, go ahead and minimise the issue and start talking about car accidents which is off-topic whataboutery.
Lightning strikes! Don't forget about the lightning strikes!
> Well, it's five times too many times in my book over any period. You seem to be lacking in empathy. One time would be too much. But sure, go ahead and minimise the issue and start talking about car accidents which is off-topic whataboutery.
Lightning strikes! Don't forget about the lightning strikes!
@replaced said in #509:
> Wrong. It IS a real solution because it SOLVES the issue. 99% of the time nobody says anything in games anyway and if someone is so thin skinned that they are hurt by online text messages then they can turn on zen mode to guarantee that they don't get hurt.
> Also let's not forget the fact that zen mode SOLVES the issue at hand. If this issue was so significant that "zen mode" would be used because solving the issue of sexual harassment on chess would outweigh the social aspect of the online chess experience which in my experience about 1 out of 100 games someone says something. So now explain to me why this issue is significant at all if people don't even bother using zen mode?
Ok well the problem with your Zen mode "solution", apart from being the equivalent of telling women to stay in the house so they don't get attacked on the street, is that a lot of the harassment happens via dm or in the forums, or in arena chat, not just in a private game chat. In fact, I would say it happens in-game the least.
Also, it would be rather impractical to get on with life and leading 7 teams and running numerous tournaments if I never interacted with anyone. The problem is not that I am not hiding, the problem is the idiots who are perpetrating the abuse. Let's be clear about that.
> Wrong. It IS a real solution because it SOLVES the issue. 99% of the time nobody says anything in games anyway and if someone is so thin skinned that they are hurt by online text messages then they can turn on zen mode to guarantee that they don't get hurt.
> Also let's not forget the fact that zen mode SOLVES the issue at hand. If this issue was so significant that "zen mode" would be used because solving the issue of sexual harassment on chess would outweigh the social aspect of the online chess experience which in my experience about 1 out of 100 games someone says something. So now explain to me why this issue is significant at all if people don't even bother using zen mode?
Ok well the problem with your Zen mode "solution", apart from being the equivalent of telling women to stay in the house so they don't get attacked on the street, is that a lot of the harassment happens via dm or in the forums, or in arena chat, not just in a private game chat. In fact, I would say it happens in-game the least.
Also, it would be rather impractical to get on with life and leading 7 teams and running numerous tournaments if I never interacted with anyone. The problem is not that I am not hiding, the problem is the idiots who are perpetrating the abuse. Let's be clear about that.
Yes the obviousy adult solution here is try and convince bad people to stop being bad, because that works!!
I wonder how delusional people would think I am, if I were to go proselytizing to the local drug gangs about how crime is bad and drug dealing is a sin.
Reminds me of when we sent loads of leaflets to germany telling the german people about how Hitler was a bad man, and how they needed to stop him. Really helped the war efforts. The sole reason we won right?
I wonder how delusional people would think I am, if I were to go proselytizing to the local drug gangs about how crime is bad and drug dealing is a sin.
Reminds me of when we sent loads of leaflets to germany telling the german people about how Hitler was a bad man, and how they needed to stop him. Really helped the war efforts. The sole reason we won right?
@Tremarl said in #511:
> Yes the obviousy adult solution here is try and convince bad people to stop being bad, because that works!!
> > I wonder how delusional people would think I am, if I were to go proselytizing to the local drug gangs about how crime is bad and drug dealing is a sin.
>
I work in regulatory law enforcement. I am all in favour of stopping people from doing bad things, and actively pursue that aim in my professional life. We don't proselytize, although we do try to educate. We investigate and prosecute if necessary. Do we succeed every time? No, of course not! Do we stop trying? Also no, of course not. If you stop trying society is lost.
> Yes the obviousy adult solution here is try and convince bad people to stop being bad, because that works!!
> > I wonder how delusional people would think I am, if I were to go proselytizing to the local drug gangs about how crime is bad and drug dealing is a sin.
>
I work in regulatory law enforcement. I am all in favour of stopping people from doing bad things, and actively pursue that aim in my professional life. We don't proselytize, although we do try to educate. We investigate and prosecute if necessary. Do we succeed every time? No, of course not! Do we stop trying? Also no, of course not. If you stop trying society is lost.